Halo Reach Beta Forum
  • Poll [1713 votes]: Clip Size eliminates skill gap.
Subject: Clip Size eliminates skill gap.

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

Poll: Clip Size eliminates skill gap. 
 I have read the OP and I agree.
 I have read the OP and I disagree.
 TL;DR >:(
  Vote     Results

Ok, so you're playing Halo Reach, right? You're using the Assault Rifle, and you kill a guy. There is 7 bullets left in your clip. Another guy is coming up fast and he's shooting you. Uh oh. What do you do?

-Switch to your other weapon, (wasting a precious second) which might not even be effective in the situation.

-Reload your Assault Rifle (again wasting time) as you are shot repeatedly. Death is inevitable.

-Press LT repeatedly.

If you picked the third option, unfortunately, you're right. It is the only thing you can do in this situation to stay alive. Welcome to Halo Reach, where every non power weapon can only kill 1 or rarely 2 opponents in a clip.

This is a problem for numerous reasons. First of all, it lowers the skill gap because weapons aren't more effective in the hands of a skilled player. It also makes teamwork difficult and slows down gameplay. Let's tackle the skill problem first.

Skill gap is the difference in performance between a poor player and a player who is very good at Halo. Let's stick with our Assault Rifle example. Why is this weapon seen as a noob weapon? The answer is not it's ease of use, or it's power, but because no matter how good you are, it will always offer the exact same performance. Why is this? The answer lies in the clip size.


Whenever you use an Assault Rifle, regardless of how good your aim is, you get one kill per clip. You shoot as many bullets as required, then reload the gun and move on to the next kill. If 100% of the bullets hit or 50% hit, either way, the end result is the same. You are not rewarded for your accuracy with the weapon.

There is no skill gap on weapons like the Assault Rifle and Pistol, because their performance doesn't reflect the skill of the player.

If the Assault Rifle had a larger clip, say, 60 like it did in Combat Evolved, a skill gap would develop. Now I chose 60 not only because it fits nicely in with the canon, but it makes sense gameplay wise. Read on.

A good player with steady aim and careful burst firing could kill as many as 3 opponents without having to reload, and that is without increasing the damage whatsoever. At 19 bullets per kill, that allows 3 kills at 95% accuracy. 2 kills at 64% accuracy, and 1 kill at 32% accuracy. That is extremely reasonable taking reticule bloom into account and human error. In the hands of a panicky newbie, the weapon would perform as it does now. It would not be overpowered with extra rounds, because if you suck so bad that you have to burn through an entire clip to kill someone, that would take a full 6 seconds. If you let a noob shoot you for an entire 6 seconds without killing them first, to be honest, you deserve to die. But a skilled player is rewarded for his accuracy by being allowed to engage several targets without having to reload his weapon. Even when outnumbered or outgunned he has a fighting chance due to his superior skill.

That is skill gap. The bad player has the same result of 1 kill per clip, as we are accustomed to now. But a good player can get up to 3 kills before reloading. The performance reflects the players skill, and this is good.

Now lets take a look at the Magnum.

The magnum is a headshot weapon, and should reward a player with good aim, right? Wrong. The magnum has 8 shots in a clip, and a player who spams the trigger only has to be 62% accurate to get his kill. A good player who has perfect aim still has to reload after his kill, leaving him vulnerable afterward, just like the bad player. 100% accurate with steady shots achieves the same end result as 62% accuracy with rapid shots. There is something wrong with that.

By increasing the clip size to 12, the good player can get 2 kills out of his magnum provided he has 84% accuracy or better. "But Bourbon" you squeal. "That gives the NOOBS more chances to hit me when they mash the trigger!!" Well get a load of this:

The reason rapid fire spraying is a viable tactic is because with luck, it may kill faster than slow accurate shots. The pistol shoots up to 4 rounds per second. That means, counting from after the first shot is fired, you can empty a clip in 1.75 seconds flat. Shooting slower at 2 rounds per second gives you better accuracy so you can kill in 5 shots. That means a typical 5 shot kill takes around 2 seconds to complete.

Now, a 12 round magazine would take 2.75 seconds to empty firing flat out. In. case you didn't notice, that means 9 shots flat out takes 2 seconds, a similar kill time to the accurate 5 shot kill. Anything more, like 10, 11, or all 12 rounds takes LONGER to kill, so if your opponent hits all 5 of his shots, you won't even get to expend the rest of the magazine.

The 12 round mag wouldn't make spam any more effective than it is now.

Many weapons in previous Halo games were capable of 3-4 kills per clip, with only a few exceptions. This created a noticeable skill gap between good players and bad. Good players had quicker kill times and were able to kill multiple opponents before reloading. Bad players had long kill times and had to reload after each kill because of their poor accuracy.

The small magazines on the spawn weapons make it difficult to defend yourself.

Another problem with the spawn weapons in this game is that they are too ineffective to defend yourself adequately. Players have to be able to defend themselves off the spawn, or the games turn into a stale campfest after the initial rush for power weapons. Remember SMG starts in Halo 2? Whenever someone got a power weapon, like a Rocket Launcher, Sniper, Sword, or even a Battle Rifle, you were completely helpless, no matter how good of a player you were. The SMG was too terrible to beat anything outside extreme close quarters. That is why BR starts were better. You could defend yourself and your teammates off the spawn. AR starts, Halo 3. Once again, you start with an ineffective weapon and the game turns into a scramble for BRs and power weapons. Then if you died you were useless until you could find a good weapon again. If they started you out with something usable the game would be far better. Power weapons are supposed to give you an advantage, not a free ride. More ammunition per magazine would really help with that.

Larger magazines doesn't promote spamming, discourage teamwork, or make spawn weapons overpowered. It cuts down on the times where you are helpless and have no choice but to die. In CE, you had effective spawn weapons with multiple kills per magazine, and 4 grenades, and melee, at all times. You could always defend yourself against nearly any opponent. This is what I am asking for. In Reach you are constantly reloading and you spawn with half the grenades (if that, Bungie is nerfing them). There are too many unavoidable situations where you have no chance at defending yourself regardless of your skill.

Killing players who cannot fight back isn't fun or sporting, and it isn't fun when it happens to you either.



Halo Reach has eliminated skill gap almost entirely with such small clips. A skilled player should be rewarded for his accuracy by being able to defend himself in a larger variety of situations. Keep this thread alive if you agree. Together we can save this game, and it could be the best Halo yet.

If I fire up Halo Reach and see this, I will squeal with joy and grow myself Sage beard in honor of the savior of Halo.

[Edited on 05.18.2010 8:34 PM PDT]

  • 05.11.2010 6:21 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

All righty, more walls of text coming up. Fix yourself a snack. Get ready.


Despite all Bungie's efforts to promote teamwork, the weapons strongly discourage it.

Another problem with shallow clips in Halo Reach is that they discourage teamwork. Everything in this game is designed with teamwork in mind, from the loadouts, the callouts, the new and improved Assist formula, everything except the weapons. It is far too big of a risk to assist your teammates when being a lone wolf nets your team more kills as well as padding your K/D ratio.

For example, the other day I was playing on Sword Base. I had Sprint and my teammate on the ground, with Jetpack, asked me if the Shotgun was still there. I ran over, checked for him, and confirmed. "Cover me, I'm coming up." he says. So I run over to the edge, magnum in hand and get ready to protect him as he makes his ascent.

Sure enough, when he takes off, an enemy spots him and starts shooting him. I put four shots into him, my buddy with the jetpack turns around and finishes him off. Before I can even reload, he gets headshot by a guy with the DMR a couple of times and drops. I shot the DMR wielder on the bridge four times, but unfortunately that wasn't enough to kill him. I tried to switch to my secondary weapon, the Assault Rifle, but it was too late. End result, away team got 2 kills, 1 death. My team got 1 kill, 1 assist, 2 deaths.


Another match on Powerhouse, my team spawns at the top of the hill. I rush for the DMR, one of our guys heads for the rockets and my other two teammates book it towards the hammer. I scope in to provide some covering fire, and sure enough, two enemies are coming up the ramp towards the hammer as well. I shot eight times and wounded them, but the guys grenade spammed and both my teammates and the enemies end up dying. Then as I reload, an enemy with a Jetpack and a Needle Rifle start blasting me. I'm two shots behind him and he takes me down. End result, the away team gets 3 kills, 2 deaths. My team got 2 kills, and I got 2 assists, but we suffered 3 deaths.


In both situations I did the "team player" thing and tried to save my allies from getting killed. Had I fended for myself, I could have killed both opponents on Sword Base and walked out alive. On Powerhouse, if I just let my teammates die and threw a grenade at the weakened opponents I could have gotten a double kill and been able to engage the Needle Rifle dude without having to reload first.

With only one kill per magazine, helping out a teammate in need is almost suicide because not only is your attention focused somewhere besides your own surroundings but if someone gets the jump on you, you have no chance at defending yourself whatsoever. How is that fair? With a possible two kills in a magazine, you could shoot a few rounds at a teammate and if someone turns the corner and finds you, you aren't a sitting duck. If the enemy gets the jump on me and beats me, that is fine. He played smart and attacked me while I wasn't paying attention. However, I should at least have a fighting chance against him. If my skill is sufficient to do win such a situation, why should I not be allowed to?

Being a lone wolf is much safer. Traveling in a group is dangerous because one or two guys can just chuck grenades and wreck you. Splitting up and helping eachother out is too risky as well because as soon as you start shooting at someone near your teammate, you leave yourself completely defenseless. Larger clips would allow you to take potshots to assist teammates and defend yourself simultaneously, enhancing the teamwork aspect of the game.

The spawn weapons need to be capable in this game so that you can be a threat and a team player right off the spawn. Every second you hunt for weapons is a second you're not killing, flanking the enemy position or covering your teammates. If you want a power weapon, you can go get it if you like, but it shouldn't be a requirement. Again, risk / reward.

The reason the BR was so popular in Halo 3 was not because it was overpowered, but because the other weapons were underpowered. The BR was the only weapon in the game that you could effectively support your teammates and protect yourself simultaneously, which led to it's overuse.

Another problem with one kill per clip weapons is that the individual player isn't a threat. The power of the individual is what should be motivating teamwork, not because you are simply too weak to be out on your own. When a single Spartan can threaten an entire disorganized team, your team has to get it together or you'll get picked off one by one. If you have good teamwork, a single opponent won't be a problem.

In Reach a sloppy team of terrible players doesn't have to play well because an individual just isn't threatening. So that jetpack guy flanked you and killed one of your team members. You can run over with no risk whatsoever and kill him. No net loss in points. The only thing a team has to worry about is grenade spam because guns simply aren't threatening in this game.

Individual skill doesn't get you anywhere and team skill isn't rewarded because the only thing you need to worry about is grenades.


One kill per clip takes the strategy out of reloading.


My final complaint about the shallow clips is that it turns reloading into a chore, a forced response after every kill instead of a disadvantage to be worked around. The way it is now, with most weapons being one kill per clip, you might as well just prevent the player from shooting for a couple seconds after they kill someone. There is no strategy to timing reloads anymore unlike previous Halo games.

As I said in the OP, a larger clip would allow some flexibility with your reload. A player with good accuracy could have enough ammo left after a kill to engage a second opponent, or assist a teammate before he has to reload. Either of these is advantageous and rewards a skilled player for pacing his shots and aiming well. With the one kill per clip system, it doesn't matter if he spams bullets quickly but inaccurately, or takes steady shots. Either method kills in a similar amount of time, and both end the same way. You get your kill, you reload afterwards. The reticule bloom system is supposed to discourage spamming and promote steady, accurate shots, but it doesn't do anything to reward the steady shots. The only caveat to spam is that you use up a few more bullets, which is usually negligible. There is no upside to steady shots right now. It's harder to do and kills the same speed, if not slower, than a spammer. This does not promote skillful shooting at all. There needs to be some sort of payoff for skill and larger clips would provide just that.

Of course, I am not asking for no reloads, or massive magazines either. If the clip is too large, then accurate shooting wouldn't be rewarded, and bad shooting wouldn't be penalized. It has to be large enough that good accuracy allows multiple kills per magazine, while bad shooting limits you to one, just like we are accustomed to now.




[Edited on 05.18.2010 8:37 PM PDT]

  • 05.11.2010 6:34 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

I have read the OP and I agree.

  • 05.11.2010 6:37 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: Kyzur
  • user homepage:

Agreed Bourbon OWNS!

  • 05.11.2010 6:46 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Vendi, Vini, Vinci

I agree

  • 05.11.2010 6:50 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

I strongly feel that fixing the clip size would eliminate grenade spam.

People rely on grenades and melee when they are pressured, right? You either open a fight with a grenade (which I am OK with) because a well thrown grenade can give you the advantage. A poorly thrown grenade means defeat.

When your gun does not have enough shots left to get the kill, and your health is dropping, your only options are grenades and melee. This happens far too often in Halo Reach, in fact, it happens after every single kill. If you are anywhere near an enemy (which when they can be jetpacking, sprinting or cloaked is highly probable) you are in a dangerous situation where you may have to rely on grenades and melee exclusively to survive. Unless you are in extremely close quarters this leaves just grenades.

This is why we have so many people panicking and throwing every grenade they have on their person. It's not because they are noobs, or because grenades are overpowered, it is because weapons are underpowered and half the time grenades are your sole option. You either chuck grenades and hope the attacker dies before you do, or just die. Everyone picks the first option for obvious reasons.

[Edited on 05.16.2010 7:23 PM PDT]

  • 05.11.2010 6:52 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Although this has been said before, I haven't seen put it better. I concur!

  • 05.11.2010 6:54 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

The starting weapon is meant to be noob friendly and have no skill gap. It levels the playing field for new players. The starting weapon can not be able to headshot for this same reason. Bungie is aware of the skill gap "issue" and it's there on purpose I assure you.

  • 05.11.2010 6:54 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

It's called a magazine not a clip.

  • 05.11.2010 6:56 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

It's a Sure Shot.
_________(''''''''| '''''''|''' ')_||___________
| ------------____.`======.-.~:______/___|=============[_]
|_|||___/ /__/~'''|_|_|_|''(0)-------------< ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;)

Increasing clip size on starting weapons would DECREASE skill gap because people could spam bullets more.

/thread

[Edited on 05.11.2010 6:57 PM PDT]

  • 05.11.2010 6:56 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds!

I saw my advantage so I took it...- Homer Simpson

I enjoy this topic and agree fully. Bungie needs to look at what they've been doing to the game and rectify it. I know that no matter what people will buy the game. But that doesn't give them the right to butcher it and change how the formula has been set for 9 years now just for a few extra sales.

Regardless of what happens it'll sell Bungie. Please your primary fans and the ones who've been with you for ages over the bandwagoning new players who'll stop playing after a month for the next new game that comes out. Stop trying to drastically alter the game and turn it into some slow, boring casual abomination.

  • 05.11.2010 6:56 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

BUMP

  • 05.11.2010 6:58 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

i agree. every non power medium-close range weapon should have at least a big enough clip to kill 2 enemies with compident aim and bloom controll.

  • 05.11.2010 6:58 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: MLG HawkEye777
Increasing clip size on starting weapons would DECREASE skill gap because people could spam bullets more.

/thread


What? Explain

  • 05.11.2010 6:59 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

I agree for the most part.

However, you said the AR gives the same performance no matter who uses it.

I disagree on that. It's not always about aiming your gun, but knowing how to use it effectivly.

If you give me an AR, I'll know from expiriance how to take out a "nooby" player with an AR, just because I know how to use it better than him.

  • 05.11.2010 7:01 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Bourbon OWNS
Halo Reach has eliminated skill gap almost entirely with such small clips. Keep this thread alive if you agree.


Skill gap or no, whatever, if the pistol had but one or two more shots per clip, I would find that it could be used considerably more effectively. So, I agree.

  • 05.11.2010 7:01 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

"Quick to Judge, Quick to Anger, Slow to Understand - Ignorance and Predjudice and Fear Walk Hand In Hand".

I agree, there is no reason for being punished for having good aim and landing all your shots in a FPS.

  • 05.11.2010 7:01 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

Posted by: TW HaZe TW
The starting weapon is meant to be noob friendly and have no skill gap. It levels the playing field for new players. The starting weapon can not be able to headshot for this same reason. Bungie is aware of the skill gap "issue" and it's there on purpose I assure you.


The starting weapons aren't supposed to suck. You should be able to defend yourself from the spawn, not spend the first 10 seconds of each life scrambling for something usable.

And the starting weapons aren't noob friendly, they are anti-pro. A terrible AR wielder and a good one both kill at a similar rate because you are not rewarded for accuracy. Bursting slows your rate of fire in exchange for accuracy. Or, you can spray the whole clip and achieve the same result. Same with the pistol. Most of the time it's better to spam the trigger and let probability do the work for you. Either way, you're reloading after. Accuracy, again, isn't rewarded.

  • 05.11.2010 7:07 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Bourbon OWNS
Ok, so you're playing Halo Reach, right? You're using the Assault Rifle, and you kill a guy. There is 7 bullets left in your clip. Another guy is coming up fast and he's shooting you. Uh oh. What do you do?

-Switch to your other weapon, (wasting a precious second) which might not even be effective in the situation.

-Reload your Assault Rifle (again wasting time) as you are shot repeatedly. Death is inevitable.

-Press LT repeatedly.

If you picked the third option, unfortunately, you're right. It is the only thing you can do in this situation to stay alive. Welcome to Halo Reach, where every non power weapon can only kill 1 or rarely 2 opponents in a clip.

This is a problem not only because it slows down gameplay, and makes it impossible to win in situations where you are outnumbered, but because it eliminates skill gap.

Skill gap is the difference in performance between a poor player and a player who is very good at Halo. Let's stick with our Assault Rifle example. Why is this weapon seen as a noob weapon? The answer is not it's ease of use, or it's power, but because no matter how good you are, it will always offer the exact same performance. Why is this? It is not the damage of the gun. It's not the fact that it is an automatic weapon, or how easy it is to aim. It is clip size.

Whenever you use an Assault Rifle, regardless of how good your aim is, you get one kill per clip. You shoot as many bullets as required, then reload the gun and move on to the next kill. If 100% of the bullets hit or 50% hit, either way, the end result is the same. You are not rewarded for your accuracy with the weapon.

If the Assault Rifle had a larger clip, say, 60 like it did in Combat Evolved, a skill gap would develop.

A good player with steady aim and careful burst firing could kill as many as 3 opponents without having to reload, and that is without increasing the damage whatsoever. At the same 16 bullets per kill, that allows 3 kills at 80% accuracy. 2 kills at 55% accuracy, and 1 kill at 27% accuracy. That is extremely reasonable taking reticule bloom into account and human error. In the hands of a panicky newbie, the weapon wouldn't be very effective because having to burn through an entire clip to kill someone would take a full 6 seconds. If you let a noob shoot you for 6 seconds without killing them first, to be honest, you deserve to die. But a skilled player is rewarded for his accuracy by being allowed to engage several targets without having to reload his weapon.

That is skill gap. The bad player has the same result of 1 kill per clip, as we are accustomed to now. But a good player can get up to 3 kills before reloading. The performance reflects the players skill, and this is good.

Now lets take a look at the Magnum.

The magnum is a headshot weapon, and should reward a player with good aim, right? Wrong. The magnum has 8 shots in a clip, and a player who spams the trigger only has to be 62% accurate to get his kill. A good player who has perfect aim still has to reload after his kill, leaving him vulnerable afterward, just like the bad player. 100% accurate with steady shots achieves the same end result as 62% accuracy with rapid shots. There is something wrong with that.

By increasing the clip size to 12, the good player can get 2 kills out of his magnum provided he has 84% accuracy or better. Sure, the bad player only needs to be 42% accurate to kill with the 12 shot magnum, but the kill time would be extremely long compared to the player who can kill in five clean shots.


Every weapon in previous Halo games was capable of 3-4 kills per clip, with only a few exceptions. This created a noticeable skill gap between good players and bad. Good players had quicker kill times and were able to kill multiple opponents before reloading. Bad players had long kill times and had to reload after each kill because of their poor accuracy.

Halo Reach has eliminated skill gap almost entirely with such small clips. Keep this thread alive if you agree.


Agreed.

  • 05.11.2010 7:08 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

It's called a magazine not a clip.

If you want to be technical, the only real difference between the two is that a clip does not have a feeding spring. So as far as his argument is concerned, it's still solid.

I've never really thought of this before OP, your writing is very well organized. I agree.

If ammo capacity was increased though, it may pose problems of its own. Someone accurate with the pistol can kill a spammer at any decent range, and its reload is fine, the AR though for SURE needs a boost of some kind.

[Edited on 05.11.2010 7:12 PM PDT]

  • 05.11.2010 7:09 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Bourbon OWNS
The starting weapons aren't supposed to suck. You should be able to defend yourself from the spawn, not spend the first 10 seconds of each life scrambling for something usable. And the starting weapons aren't noob friendly, they are anti-pro.


Magnum, cough cough.

Anti-Pro is a bad thing... how?

  • 05.11.2010 7:09 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

About me:
I'm the founder of the group Pro Goosing League.
I'm a gooser.
I like racing.
I'm a casual player that thinks that the BR might be a little bit too overpowered.

Well, it doesn't eliminate it. Otherwise, I agree.

  • 05.11.2010 7:11 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: VIDEO OMFG WOW
A must look. Watch and READ. THE TRUTH ABOUT REACH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDuE1GsU4I


Too long, did not listen.

[Edited on 05.11.2010 7:15 PM PDT]

  • 05.11.2010 7:13 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

Posted by: o7he Red
Posted by: Bourbon OWNS
The starting weapons aren't supposed to suck. You should be able to defend yourself from the spawn, not spend the first 10 seconds of each life scrambling for something usable. And the starting weapons aren't noob friendly, they are anti-pro.


Magnum, cough cough.

Anti-Pro is a bad thing... how?



A good player should always defeat a bad player on an even playing field, yes or no?

The starting weapons do not reward skill at all. Again, at close range, a pistol spammer can win if he hits 62.5% of the time. A player who shoots slower and hits every shot has a good chance of losing with those odds. Same with the Assault Rifle, you can shoot slower and accurate, or spray the whole clip.

Accuracy is not rewarded. The kill times are similar and you have to reload after the kill no matter how good your aim is. I'm getting tired of repeating this.

How are tiny, one kill clips beneficial to the game?

  • 05.11.2010 7:17 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas