Halo Reach Beta Forum
  • Subject: Clip Size eliminates skill gap.
Subject: Clip Size eliminates skill gap.

Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds!

I saw my advantage so I took it...- Homer Simpson

Posted by: MGTrey
The pistol is the all purpose weapon. It can work in all the ranges within reason. The AR will need to be much more than just another close range weapon if it doesn't want to be put down for damn near anything on the ground. Shrink the reticle a bit and give it a little boost in power and it can at least contend with the PR. :/
Well it definately needs more power for sure. If they made the AR kill faster than the PR then they could give the PR it's flavor back. Instead of being a "purple AR" they could balance it by making it kill slightly slower but give it back the plasma stun. :D

  • 05.20.2010 11:06 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

The AR needs a larger magazine, and just. tad more power. The point of the AR is putting out tons of DPS at close range but still usable at a distance. In CE the AR worked at a slight distance is because due to the volume of low accuracy fire you could still get a kill. Was it efficient, no, but it was possible.

The Shotgun and Pistol are better for dealing with one opponent at a time but the AR needs to beat them in damage dealed over time. Could they kill three enemies in 4 seconds flat? No.

The AR's massive magazine was it's main advantage over the shotgun. It put out damage faster over time but against individual targets the shotgun was superior because it dealt a whole ton all at once.

It's kind of like the pistol vs sniper situation in that regard. Pistol is more versatile but the sniper if better at picking off opponents one by one. Replace pistol and sniper with AR and shotgun and the sentence is still accurate.

Damage is fine, maybe needs a 10-15% buff. The magazine needs to be bigger though.

  • 05.20.2010 11:16 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Biggest Suck Up
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Um, reticle bloom, HEALTH PACKS, fall damage and many of the new weapon mechanics are unlike any other FPS out there, even previous Halo's.



PSSS! Hey buddy it's called Call of Duty, it's always had reticule bloom.

Did I say "new to CoD"? No, I did not. Thank you, move along. There are more FPS's out there than just CoD.

PS: Bloom existed in Halo before CoD existed. At all.

  • 05.20.2010 11:22 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

I COMPLETELY agree with OP.

  • 05.20.2010 11:25 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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The Seventh Column demands it.

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Posted by: ThreeShot
Posted by: MGTrey
The pistol is the all purpose weapon. It can work in all the ranges within reason. The AR will need to be much more than just another close range weapon if it doesn't want to be put down for damn near anything on the ground. Shrink the reticle a bit and give it a little boost in power and it can at least contend with the PR. :/
Well it definately needs more power for sure. If they made the AR kill faster than the PR then they could give the PR it's flavor back. Instead of being a "purple AR" they could balance it by making it kill slightly slower but give it back the plasma stun. :D


The PR is only better because of the way it shoots. The plasma bolts pretty much are going to hit in the same spot if you keep your reticle on target.

I still adamantly feel the best buff the AR can get is more range. Because, it's uselessness is tied to the fact that even if you see someone, you can't put any real pressure on them unless you see them at extreme close range. And then, just meleeing is a better option.

  • 05.20.2010 11:29 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Biggest Suck Up
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Um, reticle bloom, HEALTH PACKS, fall damage and many of the new weapon mechanics are unlike any other FPS out there, even previous Halo's.



PSSS! Hey buddy it's called Call of Duty, it's always had reticule bloom.

Did I say "new to CoD"? No, I did not. Thank you, move along. There are more FPS's out there than just CoD.

PS: Bloom existed in Halo before CoD existed. At all.

You mean spread. Bullet spread =/= bloom. The previous halos had bullet spread, not bloom. Get your facts straight.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 11:46 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 11:45 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: Frankie
Shut up nerds!

I saw my advantage so I took it...- Homer Simpson

Well if they made it a 16 shot kill, 48 bullet clip, and increased the range slightly how would that be? They'd have to of course increase the bloom growth speed, maximum bloom, and reduce the bloom reset, to encourage burst fire and minimize spam. Even if they had to reduce it's fire speed slightly to balance it out I'd be fine.

Accounting for lag, human error, and latency it'd be about 2 kills per clip. No one could hit all 48 shots from an automatic. So the only real way to get 3 kills would be good use of melee and grenades. There's the skill gap right there. Someone not very good would get 1-2 out of it. Someone good with it could push slightly more.

[Edited on 05.20.2010 11:48 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 11:47 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: MGTrey
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The Seventh Column demands it.

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Posted by: Sexy_Penguin
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Biggest Suck Up
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Um, reticle bloom, HEALTH PACKS, fall damage and many of the new weapon mechanics are unlike any other FPS out there, even previous Halo's.



PSSS! Hey buddy it's called Call of Duty, it's always had reticule bloom.

Did I say "new to CoD"? No, I did not. Thank you, move along. There are more FPS's out there than just CoD.

PS: Bloom existed in Halo before CoD existed. At all.

You mean spread. Bullet spread =/= bloom. The previous halos had bullet spread, not bloom. Get your facts straight.


They had bloom, multiple sources did tests and confirmed it.

  • 05.20.2010 11:49 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: MGTrey
Posted by: Sexy_Penguin
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Biggest Suck Up
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Um, reticle bloom, HEALTH PACKS, fall damage and many of the new weapon mechanics are unlike any other FPS out there, even previous Halo's.



PSSS! Hey buddy it's called Call of Duty, it's always had reticule bloom.

Did I say "new to CoD"? No, I did not. Thank you, move along. There are more FPS's out there than just CoD.

PS: Bloom existed in Halo before CoD existed. At all.

You mean spread. Bullet spread =/= bloom. The previous halos had bullet spread, not bloom. Get your facts straight.


They had bloom, multiple sources did tests and confirmed it.

*sigh* then post a link.

  • 05.20.2010 11:52 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: MGTrey
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Posted by: Sexy_Penguin
*sigh* then post a link.


Ugh. I know it's courtesy to lazylink -blam!- but I'm tired as balls and it's such a chore.

[Edited on 05.21.2010 12:00 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2010 11:59 PM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: MGTrey
Posted by: Sexy_Penguin
*sigh* then post a link.


Ugh. I know it's courtesy to lazylink -blam!- but I'm tired as balls and it's such a chore.

That shows nothing. A picture like that doesn't show if the bullets land within the reticle from how far away. It is still SPREAD.

  • 05.21.2010 12:06 AM PDT
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What? He even labels the bullet holes, complete with before and after comparison shots including RoF and distance. There's even a Halo 3 one, but I'm definitely too lazy to peruse HBO for that thing.

  • 05.21.2010 12:09 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Sexy_Penguin
That shows nothing. A picture like that doesn't show if the bullets land within the reticle from how far away. It is still SPREAD.

Halopedia quotes:

"The most pressing negative aspect of the MA5B is its inconsistent accuracy. Firing the weapon in short bursts will allow much higher accuracy, as opposed to holding down the trigger. One round fired may produce a perfect bull's-eye, but the next may fly out of the targeting reticule and slam into the dirt a dozen meters from the same target. This has lead to the belief that the rifle is very incapable of hitting targets greater than close-range; this is untrue. If attacking targets at surprisingly long-ranges, one can effectively wound or kill that target by firing in single shots or bursts. Unfortunately, this lack of consistent accuracy has tarnished the image of the rifle, and the problem has kept the MA5B out of the hands of those who prefer less spontaneous weapons."

and...

"The MA5B's accuracy degrades after exactly 1.5 seconds of sustained fire. In order to use this weapon to its fullest, you must learn the most efficient bursts to use at different ranges."

  • 05.21.2010 12:28 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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Bloom uses facts with evidence on skeptic...it's super effective!

  • 05.21.2010 12:38 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

I'm starting to think that vanilla, and even slayer pro is doomed.

This thread is just talking about the magazine size and power of the weapons, it's not even touching AA's.

The AA's just make a bad game worse really.

Slayer Pro still uses sprint, which makes the melee weapons on the map super god weapons. Sprint + Hammer in Powerhouse Slayer Pro is like being jesus freakin christ on meth. Everyone has underpowered weapons and you are a god.

I hated MLG in H3, but I think that in Reach, MLG will be this games savior.

Once retail comes out, I'll be playing Customs with 15% Speed increase, 15% jump height increase and 20% weapon damage increase. Pistol + DMR starts, with no radar.

Also, I'll balance out the power weapons on the 1 or 2 good competitive maps and add in powerup pickups like camo and overshield.

Hit me up and we'll have a good time!

I'm gonna need a huge friends list for Reach so I can constantly keep customs going. Screw matchmaking for Reach.

  • 05.21.2010 3:39 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

373 Plasma Pistol kills and counting

hey, I'm down for that. Haters gonna hate but Bungie took this game in the wrong direction. If they would have been like "hey, people said Halo 3 was too slow, let's kick it up a notch" instead of "let's increase the encounter time" it would have been great. But no, they had to slow it down more. Slower movement, longer kill times, shallow magazines... all designed to make it a slow game.

  • 05.21.2010 5:05 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Trey, you are not taking into account recoil and human error when you site the pictures showing that there is "bloom" in previous halo. The pictures of halo 1 only show spread on the pistol, of course if you have ever watched anybody decent play H1 you would realize that with the aim assist the spread becomes negligible. Which is why good players could consistently 3 shots kids across the map.

By the same token the aim assist and bullet magnetism of H2 negates any negative effects of the supposed "bloom" that you are arguing about from previous games. assuming there was any bloom to begin with, which there wasnt.

If you held the trigger down of the automatic weapons (or pulled the trigger more quickly than you can handle on the single shot weapons) they were certainly less accurate. but this had more to do with recoil plus spread. While this gives you a similar effect of bloom, it is not the same because accuracy at set distances remains constant.

The increased inaccuracy you are seeing in the halo 2 images is recoil + natural weapon spread + Human error. to put it simply, the faster you fire a weapon in halo 2 the less accurate YOU become, Not the weapon. that is independent of recoil of course, but recoil + human error IS NOT BLOOM! It may even be exacerbated by the weapon spread, but it is still not bloom.

In Reach its more like this: Accuracy = recoil + natural weapon spread + bloom + human error. Again, put simply, when you fire a weapon too quickly in Reach not only do you become less accurate, but the weapon itself does.

The effect of bloom is dependent directly on the fire rate of the weapon. do not confuse that with other variables that may appear to have the same effect, but in reality it doesn't.

if something in there doesn't make sense, i will find another way to explain it so that it does. just let me know

  • 05.21.2010 8:13 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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clip size eliminates the lone wolf skill gap.

It increases the team skill gap.

You must rely on team work to take down 2 or 3 people because of the clip size.

You cannot run in by yourself any longer and take out a whole team with a pistol.

  • 05.21.2010 8:31 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
  • gamertag: MGTrey
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The Seventh Column demands it.

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Posted by: XGC Ap0llo
Trey, you are not taking into account recoil and human error when you site the pictures showing that there is "bloom" in previous halo. The pictures of halo 1 only show spread on the pistol, of course if you have ever watched anybody decent play H1 you would realize that with the aim assist the spread becomes negligible. Which is why good players could consistently 3 shots kids across the map.

By the same token the aim assist and bullet magnetism of H2 negates any negative effects of the supposed "bloom" that you are arguing about from previous games. assuming there was any bloom to begin with, which there wasnt.

If you held the trigger down of the automatic weapons (or pulled the trigger more quickly than you can handle on the single shot weapons) they were certainly less accurate. but this had more to do with recoil plus spread. While this gives you a similar effect of bloom, it is not the same because accuracy at set distances remains constant.

The increased inaccuracy you are seeing in the halo 2 images is recoil + natural weapon spread + Human error. to put it simply, the faster you fire a weapon in halo 2 the less accurate YOU become, Not the weapon. that is independent of recoil of course, but recoil + human error IS NOT BLOOM! It may even be exacerbated by the weapon spread, but it is still not bloom.

In Reach its more like this: Accuracy = recoil + natural weapon spread + bloom + human error. Again, put simply, when you fire a weapon too quickly in Reach not only do you become less accurate, but the weapon itself does.

The effect of bloom is dependent directly on the fire rate of the weapon. do not confuse that with other variables that may appear to have the same effect, but in reality it doesn't.

if something in there doesn't make sense, i will find another way to explain it so that it does. just let me know


I understand what you're saying, but you are wrong. The AR isn't recommended to be burst fired because we become less accurate. The weapon blooms. Same -blam!- with the bloom of other weapons. It was never visualized, but it was there. If it was simple recoil and "spread", the bullet holes would be steadily trending upwards. Not all over the place.

  • 05.21.2010 8:36 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas

Posted by: MGTrey
Posted by: XGC Ap0llo
Trey, you are not taking into account recoil and human error when you site the pictures showing that there is "bloom" in previous halo. The pictures of halo 1 only show spread on the pistol, of course if you have ever watched anybody decent play H1 you would realize that with the aim assist the spread becomes negligible. Which is why good players could consistently 3 shots kids across the map.

By the same token the aim assist and bullet magnetism of H2 negates any negative effects of the supposed "bloom" that you are arguing about from previous games. assuming there was any bloom to begin with, which there wasnt.

If you held the trigger down of the automatic weapons (or pulled the trigger more quickly than you can handle on the single shot weapons) they were certainly less accurate. but this had more to do with recoil plus spread. While this gives you a similar effect of bloom, it is not the same because accuracy at set distances remains constant.

The increased inaccuracy you are seeing in the halo 2 images is recoil + natural weapon spread + Human error. to put it simply, the faster you fire a weapon in halo 2 the less accurate YOU become, Not the weapon. that is independent of recoil of course, but recoil + human error IS NOT BLOOM! It may even be exacerbated by the weapon spread, but it is still not bloom.

In Reach its more like this: Accuracy = recoil + natural weapon spread + bloom + human error. Again, put simply, when you fire a weapon too quickly in Reach not only do you become less accurate, but the weapon itself does.

The effect of bloom is dependent directly on the fire rate of the weapon. do not confuse that with other variables that may appear to have the same effect, but in reality it doesn't.

if something in there doesn't make sense, i will find another way to explain it so that it does. just let me know


I understand what you're saying, but you are wrong. The AR isn't recommended to be burst fired because we become less accurate. The weapon blooms. Same -blam!- with the bloom of other weapons. It was never visualized, but it was there. If it was simple recoil and "spread", the bullet holes would be steadily trending upwards. Not all over the place.


I know there was the slightest amount of bloom on the AR. but inside its effective range it made no difference whatsoever. Considering how minor the bloom was in comparison to the effects of aim assist and magnetism, in practice the bloom made no difference whatsoever. I mentioned this earlier in the post but maybe i should have reiterated it later.

The bloom on the AR in Reach is much greater, extending outside the range of the default reticule positioning. As bungie has stated there is also much less aim assist in reach compared to previous games.

All of the weapons in Reach have bloom save for a couple. And the bloom makes a major difference in the way that the weapons work, how you can make them effective, and the overall experience of firefights. In previous games the exact opposite was true, only a couple weapons had any bloom at all, it took a long time of firing for it to start to effect accuracy (1.5 seconds in a firefight is a long time), and was so minor that the effect on gameplay was incredibly minor or simply nonexistent.

Im simply saying that halo reach will be a completely different experience that is completely foreign to players of previous halo's. At least in the way the weapons act anyway. Any experiences players have related to bloom in other halo games will not translate at all to Reach since the bloom in other halo's made literally no effect on the way battles were fought or the outcome of said battles.

That being said, i like the bloom. but it should be made to punish spammers more and reward tactical players with good timing more.

  • 05.21.2010 9:18 AM PDT
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Posted by: MGTrey
Posted by: XGC Ap0llo
Trey, you are not taking into account recoil and human error when you site the pictures showing that there is "bloom" in previous halo. The pictures of halo 1 only show spread on the pistol, of course if you have ever watched anybody decent play H1 you would realize that with the aim assist the spread becomes negligible. Which is why good players could consistently 3 shots kids across the map.

By the same token the aim assist and bullet magnetism of H2 negates any negative effects of the supposed "bloom" that you are arguing about from previous games. assuming there was any bloom to begin with, which there wasnt.

If you held the trigger down of the automatic weapons (or pulled the trigger more quickly than you can handle on the single shot weapons) they were certainly less accurate. but this had more to do with recoil plus spread. While this gives you a similar effect of bloom, it is not the same because accuracy at set distances remains constant.

The increased inaccuracy you are seeing in the halo 2 images is recoil + natural weapon spread + Human error. to put it simply, the faster you fire a weapon in halo 2 the less accurate YOU become, Not the weapon. that is independent of recoil of course, but recoil + human error IS NOT BLOOM! It may even be exacerbated by the weapon spread, but it is still not bloom.

In Reach its more like this: Accuracy = recoil + natural weapon spread + bloom + human error. Again, put simply, when you fire a weapon too quickly in Reach not only do you become less accurate, but the weapon itself does.

The effect of bloom is dependent directly on the fire rate of the weapon. do not confuse that with other variables that may appear to have the same effect, but in reality it doesn't.

if something in there doesn't make sense, i will find another way to explain it so that it does. just let me know


I understand what you're saying, but you are wrong. The AR isn't recommended to be burst fired because we become less accurate. The weapon blooms. Same -blam!- with the bloom of other weapons. It was never visualized, but it was there. If it was simple recoil and "spread", the bullet holes would be steadily trending upwards. Not all over the place.


There is actually less recoil and less spread on the Reach assault rifle then there was on the Halo 1 assault rifle. its hardly necessary to shoot in bursts with the Reach assault rifle, because if you notice, even with the bloom, the cross hairs never get larger than the fixed circle. This is why the Reach assault rifle is poorly designed. It's too easy to use. There should actually be more bullet spread on the assault rifle, because it is a fully automatic weapon.

The Reach pistol and DMR on the other hand have a lot more recoil and bullet spread than the halo 1 pistol. Yes, you had to control the rate of fire on the halo 1 pistol and there was some spread, but not nearly as much as the DMR and Reach pistol. With bloom, these weapons get so inaccurate, its insane. It does not make sense that the precision weapons like the DMR and pistol have get so inaccurate as rate of fir increases while the assault rifle does not. Precision weapons should have less bloom than spray weapons. This is one of the major problems in Reach IMO.

EDIT: by the way, i agree. The assault rifle should have a larger clip. So should the pistol. I personally think the assault rifle should be more powerful, but at the same time harder to control.

[Edited on 05.21.2010 9:29 AM PDT]

  • 05.21.2010 9:24 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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Its not only the assault riffle (which is useless by the way). Its all the non power weapons that need a bigger clip size.

  • 05.21.2010 9:33 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas
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This post is ridiculous. THERE ARE ARMOR ABILITIES NOW!

You talk about how its unfair to spawn with crappy weapons in the beginning cause power weapons just get a free ride...

Oh you have the hammer. Im just gonna fly away now.....
Oh you have a shotgun. Im gonna sprint now...
Oh you have the rocket. Im gonna armor lock now...

There are a million strategies now to fight in this game. Who says you have to use the AR. Sprint to another weapon, fly, invis there. ITS NOT HARD TO GET ANOTHER WEAPON

And with the strength of grenades, who the **** needs the AR!?! I have been shot by people with the AR with like 2 bullets, then 'naded to death. THE START WEAPONS ARE FINE. You have 2 'nades, AR, and pistol. Without reloading, I could easily get 4-5 kills from that, 5-6 if you count melee with it.







[Edited on 05.21.2010 10:16 AM PDT]

  • 05.21.2010 10:14 AM PDT
  • reply edit unleash ninjas